New intake manifold Poll

50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
edited April 5 in HUDSON
I am starting to contact foundries on making a new Hudson intake for 232, 262, and 308 engines.  Here is what I have so far:
  1) It will be somewhat based on the original Twin H design, but will be aluminum, not cast iron.  The area on the ends of the manifold will extend slightly beyond what they are currently to allow space to properly locate two Weber carbs.
  2) It will eliminate the heat riser connection to the stock exhaust manifold, but will include a separate connection for heat from the engine cooling water.

So here is what I would like to know.  Clifford had 19 Hudsonites committed to buying a new manifold w/ dual Weber DGES (38/38) carbs.  Is that interest still there?  If so let me know if you are interested.  I do not have any pricing yet, nor do I expect this can happen if we only have 4 or 5 interested buyers.  My guess is the target price will be $500, give or take $100.

Although the initial design is still for 2 Weber DGES (38/38 synchronous), or DGEV (32/36 progressive)  carbs, would there be more interest if a generic designed manifold with an open top to allow for an adapter plate to allow for a variety of carb combinations - 2 x 1 (twin H), 1 Carter WGD (stock design), 2x2, or 3x2 Carter WGDs or Rochesters?  I have looked at the spacing and there is little room to put 3 Weber DGESs, nor do I think it would be useful as they flow about 400 cfm each anyway.  Since I would like to keep the plenum narrow I do not see the space to put a 4bbl on the manifold and Clifford already sells one like this anyway.  

So:

1) would you be interested in a new aluminum Hudson intake? - Yes or No
2) would you prefer it to be 2 Webers or have it have an adapter plate if such an animal can be designed economically? - Yes or No.

Note: I am not interested in making money on this, nor do I intend to get involved in selling carbs, or carb parts, linkages, etc.
 


Comments

  • blondwookieblondwookie Posts: 225Member
    I'm interested in a twin Webber intake system for my engine
  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    If someone wants to put a 2 Weber on a 232 or 262 I would recommend using the DGEV, progressive setup as the DGESs would be probably overkill, especially on a 232.  Still would greatly improve performance and as Kdancy has noted you can already put a single Weber DGEV or DGES on the stock Hudson 2bbl manifold.
  • superwaspsuperwasp Posts: 184Member
    Dan, is it safe to assume the spacing would be so that we could use our Twin H linkage and air cleaners without a huge amount of custom fabrication?
  • ski4life65ski4life65 Posts: 1,114Expert Adviser
    I was down for 3 setups from Clifford, so put me on the list for 3. Don Crane
  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    edited April 5
    Superwasp - unfortunately, the throttle direction on the Weber carbs will be 90 degrees different than on the 1bbl Twin H setup.  The Twin H carbs linkage pull across the head, and the Weber carbs pulls parallel to the head.  You would have to modify the opening on the Twin H air cleaners to work on a Weber, not that it cannot be done with an adapter.  I was looking at the carb mounting area on the casting could be made such that when it is machined one could drill and tap for 1bbl use as well as with a 2 bbl Weber.

    Here are some air cleaner options:

    https://www.amazon.com/WEBER-DGV-FILTER-ADAPTER-CLEANER/dp/B01N6SUF97

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/AIR-FILTER-FOR-WEBER-32-36-DFEV-CARBURETORS-AIR-PLENUM-INTAKE-VW-FIAT-FORD/283759965463
    https://www.amazon.com/1038-Weber-DGV-DGAS-Filter/dp/B00SLGZ96A
  • brumac2brumac2 Posts: 7Member
    Dan,  Yes, I am interested in one manifold.  Bruce MacLellan
  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    edited April 5
    Here is an adapter that may let you use a Twin H air cleaner on a Weber?  I need to measure the opening on a Twin H to be sure.  This is about 2.3 in.

    https://www.ebay.com/i/151875943958

  • superwaspsuperwasp Posts: 184Member
    The air horn on the Carter is 2.25", so I think it could be made to work pretty easily on the Twin H cleaners. On the Weber carbs... I thought they could be turned 90 deg to pull perpendicular to (across) the head. Years ago I looked into these for a stovebolt. Langdon used to identify the linkage on these as the 'back' of the carb meaning the linkage wouldn't strike the manifold. The stovebolt Chevy cars had almost no linkage clearance to the manifold so that was a question he got all the time.
  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    The issue is if you turn the Weber 90° it will require widening the manifold to accommodate the rectangular flange.  The other issue is the odd way the Weber throttle blades are actuated.  Unlike most carbs with the blades attached to a single shaft running through the short side, they are gear activated on two shafts on the long side.  I don't see an issue with linkage clearance.  See below.







     This is a Clifford Mopar Manifold with dual Weber DGESs
  • superwaspsuperwasp Posts: 184Member
    Ah, I see. Yes, that would make for one wide manifold if they were rotated.
  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    I have made some progress on how to proceed to make the manifolds and minimize the cost of casting patterns.  1) I will need to first do a scan of a stock manifold 2) take the scan and do a solid model to a 3D file. 3) print a 3D model of real size for fit and modifications as needed. 4) use the modified model to make 3D files for the cores, 5) print the cores from plastic.  6) make castings, 7) final machining.  So this avoids the use of expensive patterns traditionally used for sand casting.  This would not work for high volumes, but if we can get 20 to 30 manifold orders that would be great.
  • Jay_GJay_G Posts: 400Expert Adviser
    Yes, I am still interested in at least one set. 

    Jay
  • 7XPacemaker7XPacemaker Posts: 491Senior Contributor
    I’m in.
  • brumac2brumac2 Posts: 7Member
    Hi Dan,  Any chance of getting an update on your endevors with the maniifold project?  I am surely interested as well as several others..  Thank you. Bruce
  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    edited May 1
    Sure - your timing is good.

    Don Crane loaned me a nice '55 - '56 Twin H manifold as a starting model.  Although I would and could make some significant changes to the layout I want to stick with as close to the original size as possible so the manifold can be used in stock as well as modified setup.

    So far I have had the manifold laser scanned (see below).  Next, the old manifold and scan will be going to an engineering company to be translated into a 3D model.  The CAD file will then be modified inside and out for the new design.  This will include the following:
    1) change from heat riser to hot water heating, 2) modification inside to improve atomization, 3) Adding the enlarged Weber carb mounting flanges, 4) minor outside mods for simplifying the overall appearance.  

    I will be keeping the X-Y carb flange center lines the same as stock so if someone wants to use the manifold as a slightly modified 2X1 Twin H manifold it can easily be done with an aluminum adapter.  I also am planning to add some extra metal on the top of each runner near the intake so if someone wants to use it for a port FI setup it can also be done with minor machining.

    Next, the new CAD manifold design will go to a 3D print shop to be printed into probably 2 or 3 puzzle pieces to make a full-scale model for fitting on an engine with carbs.  I have purchased a couple of Chinese Weber knock-offs for the fitting.

    Once this has been sorted out, the plan is to have a modified CAD design to make the outside pattern and inside cores.  I hope to just 3D print cores instead of making them the old fashion way.  It adds to the cost per manifold but will keep the overall cash outlay hopefully under $10K for the design and engineering costs.  The traditional way of doing a sand casting for something like this would easily be about $20K from everything I have learned so far.




  • InlineEricInlineEric Posts: 27Member
    I would be interested in at least one maybe two
  • brumac2brumac2 Posts: 7Member
    Thank you Dan.  Sounds good.
    Bruce
  • brumacbrumac Posts: 229Expert Adviser
    Dan,  I am still interested, how is the project coming along?
  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    edited June 12
    We have been working on it and progress this week was good.   Chuck Fellows loaned me the parts of one of his manifolds that had all the heat riser cut off and split into two parts.  This cut the amount of time to do it with a laser and strip it off in the CAD program.  We now need to put the two parts back together with the correct spacing and changing the carb flanges in Solidworks.  Then add a balance tube and hot water atomization.  Also, we will be adding a dimpled floor in the area under the carb to help atomization.  Also will be adding extra thickness at the intake flange to block for fuel injection if desired.  Here are the scans of the two parts I got on Thursday.

    I won't steal too much of Kerry's announcement but we are working on also a project to bring back Rudy and Chuck's finned Hudson head, made by a reputable outfit.  Key there will be finding enough buyers to make it all happen.
  • dave11dave11 Posts: 140Expert Adviser

    I would take one, would want to utilize my existing stock one barrel carbs.

    Dave Eddie

  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    Dave you can but you will need to use this adapter as the new manifold flange will be setup for 2 2bbl webers.  https://allcarbs.com/product/1bbl-2bbl-weber-adapter-plate-jeep/
  • TheSweed1TheSweed1 Posts: 12Member
    Have you looked into 3D printing an intake manifold they can print in medal now and high temp plastics as well as a polymer with carbon fiber that is even lighter. If you took the original Twin H manifold had it scanned into a digital file buy a commercial scanning company you could then modify the 3D CAD file to any set up you want then send the file to a 3D printing company and have it made. I would be very interested in this approach as I have been looking for a 3 1 barrel set up to put on my 308 and am not having any luck. If I had a scanned file of the twin H I could manipulate it myself in AutoCad or Fusion and make any of the set ups needed. 

  • TheSweed1TheSweed1 Posts: 12Member
    Okay so I see you have all ready taken that approach. I would like o make a 3 1 barrel set up for the holley glass bowl carbs 1904 1920 that would face the glass bowl to the side of the engine. Would this be possible for you to accomplish also? 

  • TheSweed1TheSweed1 Posts: 12Member
    By the way I have a Makerbot 3D printer that can be used for the mock up if that helps.

  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    Sweed thanks for the input and 3D printing offer.  I have thought a lot about the best approach to produce what will be a very limited market for the intake.  There were lots of options to consider and I had to narrow it down to what would address the widest interest such that more than a couple of manifolds could be sold.   The current effort, as I have noted earlier, isa a 2x2 manifold that will be optimized for 2 Weber DG series carbs.  These would be either the 32/36 progressive or the 38/38 synchronous types.  The 38/38s will flow about 390 CFM each at full throttle, which is way more than enough for almost any size Hudson I6. The fact that the Webers (European made only) are high quality, have excellent atomization for a carb, and can be purchased new off the shelf weighed also in this decision.  The older Carter, Holley, and Strombergs are mostly rebuilds with some new Chinese junk thrown in.  Also, the manifold can be modified with adapters to put Carter one and two barrels on if desired.  I am also adding extra thickness at the manifold exit for anyone that wishes to give port fuel injection a shot.  A three 1 or 2 barrel would be cool, but for the size of the market, for what it is, there is just not enough there to make it practical.  I did look briefly at the possibility of trying to mount 3 Webers but there is really not enough room to easily fit them, and it would result in a way over carbed setup as well.  

    The initial prototype manifold will be 3D printed for sizing, fitting, and any other adjustments that may be needed prior to committing to full-scale production.  However, producing say 30 to 50 manifolds (that is the goal) by 3D printing would be cost-prohibitive from the numbers I have seen. 

    All that being said if what I have in CAD when finished is something you can use for your one-off we can discuss it.  I am not sure if your Makerbot is large enough to print a manifold or not?
  • TheSweed1TheSweed1 Posts: 12Member
    You are correct the Makerbot would have to print it in sections it can do approx. 8" X 12" 7". I typically make the pieces to snap together like a puzzle or leggo for mock up purposes then send it to a commercial printer once it is perfected for final print usually a SLA or DLP resin tank printing service. I have not had an object printed in metal yet as I have no need for it for my work. I am an Architect and use it typically for printing scale models of buildings when a client does not understand the 2D drawings. I have been researching the use of high temp plastics also like they use for current fuel injection plenums in production cars. The problem we have is the exhaust is right next to the intake and if headers are used the temps may exceed the ability of a thermal plastic to maintain its shape. Let me know if you are in need of printing. My printer is not used very often so having it print something should not cause a problem for me. Also if you have a tripple one barrel manifold you are not using and would like to sell let me know I may be able to modify one of them to use the Holley 1904 or 1920 glass bowl carbs. I have eight that I have working very well currently with the large throat. Take Care  Warren

  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    I will let you know about printing the part in sections and putting it together that may work for the test part.

  • TheSweed1TheSweed1 Posts: 12Member
    any more news on your triple carb intake? or are you selling your side draft weber intake?

    Warren

  • 50C8DAN50C8DAN Posts: 2,276Senior Contributor
    Warren the 3x2 Weber is no longer available.  The 2x2 manifold project is moving forward but when you are low on the CAD priority things take a bit longer.  The laser scans are done but the file parts need to be combined to make the final 3D model.
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