'53 Hornet Ignition Issue - Advice welcome!

ShaneStone1964

A little background first, if you will indulge me. My 15 year old step-son wanted a classic for his first car. He didn't want to even look at anything newer than a '56 anything. We feel in love with, and bought, a 1953 Hornet, 308 ci, Twin-H. It had been garaged and hadn't been titled since 2001. It was restored by an owner previous to the one we bought from some time in the 90's. It's not a professional renovation, but its not bad. We've been working on it for a few weeks now. Rebuilt the carbs, changed all the plugs, fluids, belts, cables, etc. Last weekend, we were flushing the cooling system and had in running pretty well. Sunday was going to be the day to fill with fresh coolant, sync the carbs and maybe take it out on the road for the first time. The problem was that when we went out to fire it up on Sunday, it would hit even a lick. No clicking for the starter, just silence when hit the starter button. The electric fuel pump fired up, the fan ran fine, etc. Just no fire at all to the starter.

Thinking that it was probably the solenoid, I changed it out this morning. As I said, I know almost nothing of the restoration or the 12 volt conversion. I took the solenoid that it came to us with me to the parts store and they gave me what appears to be a match. The old one had no markings on it what so ever.  They said it was a Ford solenoid. I've changed it out now and not only is the ignition issue still unsolved, now I'm not even getting the electric fuel pump or fans to run.

Other than the possibility that it's not the right replacement solenoid, does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? I could put the old solenoid back on, but it still won't fire up the starter.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Park_W

What happens if you rig a hot wire from the battery and touch it to the small terminal on the solenoid?

ShaneStone1964

Park, I haven't tried that yet. Should I hear the switch click open inside the solenoid? Or should I expect something different?

ShaneStone1964

Would suggest jumping the "S" or the "I" small terminal?

Park_W

You've got a later 12v Ford solenoid if it's got the "I" terminal.  For the test, you want to jumper to the "s" terminal.  The solenoid should click and the starter should run.

The "I" terminal has power on it only when the solenoid is energized.  It's for 12v cars that have an external ballast resistor.  If connected to the "coil side" of the ballast resistor, it provides a full 12v to the coil when the engine is cranking.

ShaneStone1964

Thanks, Park. I'll go give that a try and report back.

ShaneStone1964

Park, I jumped the "S" terminal and it did exactly as you said. The starter turned right over.

Park_W

That would suggest a problem at the ignition/starter switch, the power feeding it, or the wire from it to the starter solenoid.  Looks like you may have to do the "man disappearing under the dash" maneuver.  Or you might be able to reach the switch from the top by removing the radio speaker grille and speaker.

ShaneStone1964

Thanks, Park! I've been under the dash and it's spaghetti. LOL Is it more likely that the switch simply went bad or that a wire came loose/grounded? My gut says wire.  sigh.

Park_W

You might try jiggling the key while you hold it in the "start" position. If that brings it to life, it would pretty much confirm that it's the ignition switch is the culprit.

lostmind

If it's an automatic transmission it has a neutral safety switch. Try moving the shift lever around while holding the key in the crank position. Parking brake On! , foot on brake pedal!

It may need adjustment.

ShaneStone1964

Thanks, Park and lostmind. I've started the post-mortem on the ignition. I've found some sketchy conditions on the wiring from the neutral safety switch to the solenoid. Thought I would start by by-passing the neutral safety switch in the morning. If that worked, then I would just replace that wiring run. After getting really deep into whole wiring "upgrade" done back in the 90's, I'm strongly considering replacing the entire wiring harness. It would cost time right now, but may save time and headache in the long run. Does anyone have suggestions on harness suppliers that won't eat up the rest of meager budget too badly? 

Geoff

Murphy's Law, subclause 91(a):  All modifications to improve performance  will have an inverse effect on reliability.

Uncle Josh

Yas, and anything you do to fix it will only make it worse

ShaneStone1964

True, Geoff C. I'm just looking for reliability at this point! LOL

Jon B

There are several companies that can furnish exact duplicates of the original wiring harness. The problems are that:

1) They ARE pretty pricey
2) They are the original layout.  You have a 12-volt conversion and no telling what they have wired to what!

If upon inspection you find that the quality of the wiring itself is fairly good, you might just go with what you have, and just carefully inspect all the connections and terminals to make sure they're good.  Also note wherever the wiring passes through a hole in the body, to make sure that the insulation hasn't been worn away.

Of course, if any of the wiring is of the original cloth-covered type, THAT you will probably want to replace with modern style wiring.  But if the existing wiring is still pretty good, no need to spend good money for new wiring that won't be that much better.

Shane, where are you located?  Most Hudson folks are friendly and helpful and one of them might live in your vicinity, have a similar car, and be able to lend you his (or her!) expertise.

ShaneStone1964

Jon B, 

I found many abandoned wires, loose wires, unsheathed wires, electrical taped wires, etc. It was very disheartening, actually.    I'm sure I could have solved the immediate issue, but it gave my wife and I concerns about future reliability.

I looked at several wiring harness options. You are right that some are very pricey. This is a car for my 16 yo step-son and will be used as a daily driver more than a show car. I bit the bullet and bought the American Autowire Highway 15 kit. So if anyone has experience, tips or suggestions, I welcome them all!

I'm in the Middle Tennessee area. Murfreesboro to be more exact.

Thanks!

J Lombard

Shane:

Try this link to my '53 Hornet wiring trouble, http://openforum.hetclub.org/discussion/167726/53-hornet-wiring-dilema#latest

good luck

J Lombard

Jon B

Shane:  "Been there!"  When I first got my car, the wiring was a mish-mosh of old & new, but with an emphasis on "old" (i.e. cloth insulation, mostly frayed).  Being penniless at the time I simply bought rolls of vinyl covered wire and (to the best of my clueless ability) constructed new wiring.

Do consult a wiring diagram if you have a manual.  (Downloadable manuals are on the H-E-T site, for members).

Meanwhile, disconnect your battery when not using the car!  And carry a fire extinguisher when you are!

J Lombard

Jon:

Good advice.

J

ShaneStone1964

Thanks, J Lombard. I read through your conversation. I did go through and checked the safety neutral switch previously. It appears to be working fine. The car was running just fine on a Saturday night when I packed my tools up and then wouldn't do a damned thing Sunday morning. It was while trying to chase down that issue that I discovered the sad shape of the wiring. My wife, who's son will be driving this car, strongly seconded my thoughts on just installing a new wiring harness after she looked through some of wiring, too.  LOL

ShaneStone1964

Jon B.,

Thank you! I have the wiring diagrams you reference. I have the '52 Mechanical Procedures Manual, the '52 Group Parts Catalog, the '52-'53 Hydra-matic Transmission Supplement, and even the '53 Sylvania Radio Manual. What I still need to find is the '53-'54 Mechanical Procedures Supplement.  

PS. Always have a fire extinguisher close.  

shane

Jay_G

The 53 - 54 supplement has the wiring diagram for the 53.  I know no help at all.  I will say Y & Z makes a great harness and everything is labeled.  But it is pricy.

Sorry Jay

RichardD

Would suggest that POR15 be used before all the wire pulling~~ WHY leave the metal rusty !

pseftoncomcastnet

I just used an RI Wire underhood and dash kit on my 1951 Commodore 4 DR. Where the wires didn't show, I used generic fabric-over-modern plastic insulated wire to save a few $$$$. It is a driver, not a show car!

Results were great, although I wish I had followed Ken's tip about laying out the old harness on the garage floor, perhaps side-by-side with the new one. One thing I would add is that it is important to take pictures that show how the harness feeds through the body and which wire passes through what aperture. This can be surprisingly confusing. Also, misaligning the main cable by an inch or two in any direction can mean that some leads will be too short.

I followed the instructions that came with my Sears bungalow in 1927 - "if it doesn't fit, don't cut it. You have it in the wrong place."

The results are wonderful!

ShaneStone1964

Thank you all, Gentlemen.  I appreciate all of your advice! The pics were also very informative, Ken. Thanks!

RL Chilton

Shane-

I've done one of my Hudsons with Hwy.15 wiring type-of kit and another one with a YNZ Wiring Harness.  Yes, YNZ is more pricey, but worth every dime in my opinion.  I wired my car with the pre-made harness in less than a weekend.  The time and headache you save is priceless, at least to me.