Distributor doesn't line up properly
Comments
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Interesting......my MPM shows the #1 plug wire in the (roughly) 4 o'clock position. See attached (if it's big enough to see).
F
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This is the 262 engine for a 1948 Commodore Six. Does that make a difference?0
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No, it makes no difference. All pressure lubed sixes are the same including the 202 Jet/Wasp.
F
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K,
The photo in the '52 manual (and all others for these engines) shows the distributor body/cap in the 3-9 orientation. It just looks prettier in the photo (Fig 19, pg. 6-22 in the '48-'52 MPM) but isn't representative of the actual installed position. I photocopied and rotated those photos to show them in their positions as they relate to one another. The people who produced the manuals weren't mechanics, apparently, and added an element of confusion into what was already a mystery to many.
To further the dilemma, they changed their instructions in the '53-'54 Supplement, directing you to set the engine at TDC of #1(firing) to install the distributor......just the opposite of the '48-'52 MPM which says to set it at TDC (firing) of #6. To be fair, the authors changed the distributor installation instructions to make a commensurate change in the distributor installation to coinspond (a word my wife made up) with the new crank position (actually "cam" position) instructions.
The reason for the change (this is my guess) is that, when an engine is assembled and the timing components are installed, the book directs you to set the crank at TDC of 1 & 6 to install the timing chain, which subsequently establishes #6 as the "firing" cylinder. It then goes on to direct the installer to place the distributor in the #6 firing position and stick it in. Great, but I'd suspect that too many were ignoring that detail when it came to distributor installation time.
So...the '53-'54 Sup. tells you to set the engine at TDC #1, firing, and set the distributor to a matching #1 firing position. Since this is the usual scenario in the field, it makes better sense to the mechanic. Why Hudson ever placed the timing marks for chain installation at #6 firing, I'll never know, but they did. The '48-'54 just assumes the distributor will go in before the crank is rotated from the #6 firing position......not usually how it goes. These later instructions are applicable to the 202 as well.
The end result is identical as long as you adhere to both points in the text.
Most people say to just stick it in and adjust the plug wire positions to match but I prefer to set it up as the manual shows to reduce confusion for future mechanics. Most of 'em have never heard of a Hudson anyway, much less actually seen one. They need all the help they can get.
I have photos/instructions on how to install the pump without the K-M J-2794 tool, if need be.
F
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Frank can you send those photo/instructions to me?
thanks
J Lombard
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Frank
Those photos/instructions would be good to have posted on the forum.
Lee O'Dell0 -
Kenneth
I bought one of Gert Cristiansen tool he machines like the K-MJ-2794. The MPM manual does not explain the position of the arm on the tool `just before installing the oil pump so the arm lines up with the distributer bolt mounting hole. Since you mentioned the pump gear rotates clock wise entering the block then the tool arm should be turned counter clock wise a little so it lines up with the mounting hole when pump is mounted. Is that correct? I will be installing the pump and distributor for the first time and would like to be clear on the procedure. The engine is in the can and it looks like a two man job.
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Lee O.Dell0 -
The pin on the tool should line up with the 1/4 NC threaded hole before pushing the pump inward. It will rotate with the helical cut of the gear as it moves upward in the distributor mounting socket. It's not a two-man job if you are lucky enough to have it up on a lift since you can reach both sides simultaneously. Engaging the pump shaft with the tool is a bit of a pain 'cause it wants to push the tool away as you do so. I made a spring-loaded J-2794 clone that maintains some "push-back" so you can "feel" the pump onto the tool. Makes that one-man approach easier since I work alone (who'd work with me?).
I'll round up that stuff soon. (pics, etc)
F
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Frank
Thank you for clarifying procedure with the J-2794 tool pin position.
I bought that tool years ago from Gert because it was a neat looking tool and inexpensive, not thinking I would ever have to use it. Well, what put me in this predicament I'm in now was when the simple job removing leaking oil pump cover seal turned ugly when the 14 - 20 cover bolt snapped requiring pump removal to remove broken off threads.
Lee O'Dell0 -
Problem solved. Just needed to move the spark plug wire one terminal counter clockwise and it fired right up.0
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Frank, after looking at your picture of the 53-54 distributor several times and thinking something doesn't look right to me, I blew the picture up and see that the vacuum line has a 90 degree fitting coming out. All three engines I have on hand have a straight fitting with the vacuum line running straight up and then over. All three have #1 in the 2:00 position and tang at 9:00 position.
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I noticed the right angle fitting as well and also have several others here that do not have that arrangement, but the position of the vac advance can is as it shows in the pic. If you rotate the dist body 'til the indexing tang/notch is at the 3 o'clock position, the vac can will be at about 10 o'clock. The numbering on the cap in the illustrations is as it appears in the manual.....I didn't add that, so I assume it's correct.
Tang at 9 o'clock? did you mean 3?
The illustrations are right out of the '48-'52 MPM ( I don't recall if they're in the '53-'54 Supplement) . I'll need to study this some more, it appears. There are few things I dislike more than being wrong and giving bad advice......although it hasn't stopped me in the past.
I could give you a call if it would help work this out more quickly. How 90s is that?
F
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Looks familiar to me! Where is the No.1 wire? The cap indexing notch is at the 4 ish position and the vac can is at 10:30 ish, just as my pics from the manual show. The only remaining question is where #1 is on any given installation. According to "the book" it should be the first tower adjacent to the R/H clip in the counter-clockwise direction from it.
I find that they vary somewhat from those exact positions but that can be from variations in several things. Note that the vac can in the pic from the manual is in the near-vertical orientation. Any closer to vertical and you can't get a vac line into the can without the Rt. angle fitting, in fact that may be why it's there in that shot. Do you suppose they used a photo from a non-standard installation? They wouldn't do that would they?
I rest my case.
F
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That photo is how my distributor was mounted before removing. I suppose it was mounted with vacuum can not going straight up because it would be very difficult to install vacuum line with coil in the was. Unless move coil higher in bracket like in MPM. Number one wire was at 6 o'clock. Using Gert's tool to install oil pump and distributor and vacuum can as in Ken's picture, number one wire may be in 12 or 1 o'clock. Have to wait and see how it turns out.
That is a pretty engine Ken.
Lee O'Dell0 -
Well.....I'm stumped. If someone can point out where I'm going wrong, I'd certainly appreciate it. Frankly, I've never seen one with a 90 degree fitting, except in the MPM photo. That part really doesn't matter. It's the relationship of the block, body and shaft that is in question.....at least here, anyway.
Frank
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Maybe the Hudson vacuum advance assemblers found out all 90 degree fittings did not tighten at the same direction. Perhaps some faced the inner fender, or engine block, firewall, battery ect. and maybe some faced in the direction shown in the Mechanical Procedure Manual picture. I can see by eliminating it it save money and reduced assembly time. As I was looking at the picture and holding distributor in my hand rotating it I noticed that if the vacuum advance did point straight up the shaft oil filler tube is pointing down hill. Did not see a oil pump on the dist. oil cap to pump oil up hill to lube the distributer shaft.
The picture of Ken's vacuum advance angle also show the distributor shaft oil cap angle allows the oil to drain into shaft. Hudson recommends oiling the shaft every 2.000 miles.
Sorry, got off the original question.
Lee O'Dell
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My vacuum advance is positioned pretty much the same as in Frank's picture or maybe a little more vertical, i.e. , at 12:00 o'clock. My terminal for #1 is close to 11:00 o'clock for the "Petronix" distributor. For the original points distributor # 1 is at 5:00 o'clock. Go figure.0
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Jason,
If the #1 terminal switched positions by 180 degrees, something else is in play other than the Pertronix conversion. Did you remove or dis-assemble the centrifugal advance mechanism when you did the change? if so, it sounds like you got the advance mechanism on 180 out. Not a big deal, functionally, but it would put the wires in the arrangement you describe.
The conversion to Pertronix won't necessarily leave things in the same exact position as they were before the changeover. The magnet ring doesn't trigger the spark at the same rotational point as the breaker points did so it just requires a final adjustment before start-up. In other words, if you had the timing perfectly set, then changed to Pertronix and fired it up (or tried to) the ignition timing won't be the same (assuming all else is equal).
F
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Not to worry Frank. When I decided to put a Petronix unit in a distributor, I called Dave Kostanek and he recommended I get a distributor for a 1951 or later for that purpose. I wanted to keep the original distributor for a backup. When I got the new one, I noticed that the distributor tang went in 180 degrees from the original distributor and the rotor pointed in the opposite direction. I just know that when I exchange distributors, number one fires 180 degrees from the other.0
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As Frank pointed out, it's a very easy fix, takes about 15 minutes or less to switch the mechanical advance 180-degrees and then both of your distributors will be "correct".0 -
It's not that involved, besides.....that wouldn't do it. You just remove the clip from the center of the shaft-end, down in the counterbore ("just"? it's really a pain!), lift it slightly to disengage the advance mechanism drive pins, rotate it 180 and wiggle it back down into place and put the clip back on. We're not suggesting that you change the base plate position, just the moveable, upper part of the advance mechanism. This process gets the rotor drive flat oriented @180 from where it was on the shaft.
Check to see which one is correct before changing one of them....you don't want to end up with two incorrect ones.
F
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Frank, how would I know which of the two is correct? Need I remind you guys again that I'm a self made "mechanic" who spent his career in a courtroom. Unless someone shows me a picture, points to the clip in question, and says, "This is what I'm talking about" then I'm flirting with disaster.....0
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Yes, Ken, that's what I meant and had to do with my latest distributor.Jason, the clip that Frank is talking about is in the top of the distributor, down in side the central shaft. Usually, there is a little, for lack of a better term, "cotton ball" type of wadding that you first have to remove. The clip is behind the wadding. Fairly easy to get out, can be a pain to put back in (and don't lose it!). I'm sure someone will come up with a picture.0
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Assuming I do get both distributors to work, I'm trying to come up with a method where the spare coil is attached to the fender and utilizing a wiring terminal or pigtail where I can plug the coil that is being used at the time and unplug the other. Since I have two of them, I was wondering what effect an Petronix Ignitor II coil would have on a points distributor.0
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Oops.....I forgot about the felt oil wick in there. That would have left Jason scratching his head, eh? I've been threatening to make a tool to extract/replace that damned clip for years but so far, haven't taken time to design/do it. Maybe next year.....
Jason. IMO, you are being overly worried about the reliability of either distributor. The original breaker points set-up will serve you well but I'm not opposed to the Pertronix conversion.....I have two Hudsons using it.
As for the shaft/rotor relationship issue, if you wanted pictures, I've got pictures.
499 & 500) This is a core distributor, a 4009B, that I'm using for show and tell. The white spot on the body OD at the lower left is the cap indexing notch. The aforementioned felt wick is at the center of the shaft. Note the little greasy gizmo at 6 o'clock. This is the vac. adv. arm retaining clip.....it's a bastard to get off, but you'll figure it out. Don't lose it.
501) after removing everything to this point, you will see the end of the shaft down in the center recess of the cam/upper part of the advance mechanism. The two little "snake eyes" are the ends of the Jesus clip that you will remove next. How you accomplish this is dependent on your patience, skill, and available tools to do it. I used two needle nosed pliers and still battled it for fifteen minutes. (go ahead.....tell me how quickly you can do it).
502) This is what you are looking all over the floor for.
504) mark the pin and cross so that you know where it was before you lift the cross/cam upward enough to let it disengage the pins. I'm only saying this part for the sake of simplicity here......you'll probably want to remove the cam completely to clean/lube it.
507) Rotate the cam/cross 180 degrees and re-install it on the pins. You will need to move the flyweights outward a bit to make it drop into place.
509) With the shaft offset tang (bottom of photo) oriented with the drive flat toward the right side, the rotor flat is aimed roughly at the cap indexing notch at the upper left of photo.
Assembly is the reverse of dis-assembly.....except where it isn't.
Class dismissed. There will be a test on Friday and ,be advised, a "Pop Quiz" at any time.
Frank
F
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Nicely done, Frank!0
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A couple of things to add:
Note the reversal of the rotor indexing flat between 504 and 507. This is what this exercise is meant to accomplish.
I should have mentioned that the rotor flat/drive tang relationship was correct before I started this photo shoot. I reversed it during this lesson for illustrative porpoises only, then returned it to its original position.
Frank
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Porpoises?!? You also train dolphins?0
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That was just a test to see if anyone was paying attention. Nobody has been able to train dolphins since back in the Marino days.
F
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Marinos? I thought they were a breed of sheep!0
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