6Volt or 12Volt
Comments
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I've been very happy with my 6-volt system for the last 45 years, though I'm driving a pre-war car, not a StepDown. Possibly the later (more powerful) cars start better with 12 volt, or your car has a particular problem that might be solved by a switch over. I would discuss the pros and cons with Doc. One advantage is that you can run modern stuff that only works on 12 volt, in your car. In my car, there are no appliances beyond the radio, and that's the original 6-volt one!
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Ken U yes it is for my 39, I have also thought of the ease in going to the auto parts store to get blubs and such instead of having to order. I don't have the desire to add an air conditioner to it as. Brighter lights are nice but I wont be doing much night driving with it. Also I would like to keep my generator instead of going with an alternator. Now that said I have heard of something called genernator. It is an alternator in a generator body I think. Do you know anything about that?Jon B as my car is pre war also I want to stay as original as possible. Doc said 12V would give me faster starting, brighter lights and ease of getting bulbs. But as I said I want to keep my generator and I told Doc this. Said he could put a black alternator on it. Not a fan. Radio and heater is in mine. Also clock. all original equipment. As stated above I am interested in the genernator0
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You will get both for and against this conversion. I would say that I have motored Hudson products for over 60 years, and have never had trouble with starting, or lights on 6 volts. However, the system has to be right up to scratch, and have a battery that has adequate cranking capacity, and use real heavy cables. 36 watt light bulbs will produce the same amount of light whether 6 or 12 volts. The main thing is availability of 6 volt stuff, but all I do is have a spare set of bulbs in my kit, then re-order if I use them. My cars have radio, heater,clock, and overdrive, all positive ground 6 volts, so I prefer to stick with the original, but ultimately, you have to weigh up the pros and cons and decide for yourself.Geoff0
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Hi Val, you have to think what you really want for the car i.e. What's "its story"or "yours" - I love 6 volt cause up to 3 years ago before owing my car I never knew cars were positive earth. It's a great talking point when out at car shows etc. All my motor friends in their 20's who only drive modern find it cool and really different to experience the whole driving "bubble" of what a car from the 1930's really feels like, behaves like, and smells like. I'd hate to cheat them from having the car easy to drive like a modern "switch it on and just go" - It's registered roadworthy for 1936 Australian road standards i.e. No seat belts, power assist brakes etc - however I also live in a 1936 house that I keep period -save for the wiring which I changed to plastic some years ago. You have to work out how important 6 volts fits into your story you project with the car. Everyone loves my home cause it is 1936 thruout - however they don't know about the safer wiring even though I keep all the power points, switches 1936 period Bakelite. It's interesting that my friends who all love their smartphones cannot wait to ring someone using my 1920's candle stick phone - even thou it's really heavy to hold, kills your arm after 10 minutes and you have to dial the number etc - it all comes down to the story you want to "project" - the story would be lost if the phone was a plastic modern lookalike - the phone although heavy brings the caller right back to the "feel" and "smell" of an actual 1920's phone. I cannot change it as it needs the original wiring, speaker, micophone to build its picture of 1920's - 30's - but I did with the house as u didn't want to maintain cloth wiring replacement every 30 years - cheers Ken0
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ken1962-Loved your post. Always thought it would be cool to do the same with my residence.Val-I have two stepdowns in the garage, both converted to 12V. It was done because I live in South Texas and AC in the cars was a requirement (for me). Unless you want to run a modern day stereo, phone charger, AC system, I don't think the conversion is really warranted.The Alternator-inside-a-Generator-case is really cool and prohibitively expensive. I almost went that route, as I wanted at least the look of authenticity, but was simply not practical. Alternators are a plus over generators, no question.I believe I would have a very hard time converting a Pre-War car (that was not a street rod). In the end, though, it's your car. Make it how you want. it.0
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Interesting that 6V, positive Earth is thought to be unusual. Almost all major auto manufacturers, Ford, Chrysler, Studebaker, Packard, etc. used that configuration up until the mid fifties, except GM who had been 6V Neg. It wasn't a "Hudson thing".
As for the 6V alternator, I have used two of them and am happy...so far. It certainly makes a positive difference in lighting at low rpms since they put out high current at low speeds. Look at PowerMaster's Powergen units if you want more info. They offer a 6V pos ground unit but they are quite expensive. I used a GM style, stepped case (short case or long) but no one but a Hudson expert would ever notice it was there. The long case version fits well with no mods and a few appropriate shims. The standard pulley is for the narrow belts so one must purchase a wide belt version for your car. One thing I found is that the pulley hubs are not keyed, relying strictly on friction for the drive at that point.....yuk. Note that the long and short case has nothing to do with the internals of the alternator.....it's just a case/mounting difference.
They also offer a 6V pos in a Ford style (#82106) Which looks more stock but would require more mounting modifications. The GM styles are #82056 (long case) and #82116 (short case). Jeg's has them listed but ships from the mfgr.
Frank
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OK thanks all for your thoughts I have contacted the gener-nator and it is about $900 to take my generator and convert it to an alternator. 6 or 12 volt. A bit on the expensive side but seemingly the only way I can keep the generator look and have the power of an alternator. And it can be done in positive ground. But I will discuss with Dr Doug and the guys as to what they feel is best for my old girl.0
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I converted a 53 to 12V neg, alternator, modern fuse block hidden under dash. Can get bulbs, battery or a fuse anywhere, jump start any time. Starter was converted, bulbs changed, radio re-worked, and a few resistors needed, all parts listed by Mr. Waldrop. Very glad I did it when car torn apart. Wired it myself using American Autowire Nostalgia 15 kit, with period-correct wire. Bright headlights, 93 Amp alternator, no downside that I can tell aside from no longer being 'original.' Drove it 1300 miles for Chattanooga, and can drive it any time anywhere.0
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David C did the 53 have a generator originally? Don't know much about post war cars from the late 40's and 50's. But 12V neg is interesting. I know I will need starter converted and radio redone if I go 12 v. Not sure yet of what I will do. Mr Waldrop?0
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If you end up agreeing with Doug that it makes sense to switch to 12 volts, you don't necessarily have to go with a $900 "genernator" -- nor, in fact, do you even have to use an alternator. I may be wrong, but I think you may be able to find a 12-volt generator that would fit your car, since 12 volt generators were in use from the mid-fifties until the advent of the alternator in the early sixties and surely one of them would fit your car.
I guess the big question you have to ask, before you embark on all these modifications, is how much and how often you're going to use your car. For the occasional use that most of us give our antiques -- maybe once a weekend, with a trip or two to the ice cream shop during the week, and maybe one or two really long trips to distant car meets -- the original setup should suffice. After all, automobiles managed to run with it from the early 1900's to the 1960's.
If you are seriously intending to use your car for everyday use, or (like Heidi Hetzer) drive it literally around the world, then it would behoove you to go over it from stem to stern, putting in modern components (maybe even a modern engine).
Many of us get along very well with the old technology, we just learn to live with it and its occasional inconveniences, and occasionally we find replacement parts that work subtly to bring our cars up to a more modern standard without any big modifications. (Installing new, brighter 6-volt quartz-halogen bulbs that fit in the 1930's sockets,is one example of this. Retro-fitting electric wipers or a vintage accessory wiper vacuum pump, is another.)
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Jon B that remains to be seen as I do like the originality of the car so I do not want any noticeable cosmetic change made. I asked Doug about this and when he mentioned an alternator I told him I was opposed to any cosmetic change and that I would agree only if it wasn't noticeable. I was not aware of 12V generators. These 6v quartz halogen bulbs, where do you get these? As it is I am likely to stay with my original 6V system. Brighter lights are nice but honestly I wont be doing much driving at night and they were good enough when the car was built so should fine now. Admittedly I do have electronic ignition in the car but Doug suggested I go back to points. I agreed to that as I wasn't overly fond of the electronic. My car will be used as most of you use yours, weekends in the summer and maybe once a week. On occasion the distant overnight trip to car shows.What are the inconveniences that you speak of? Also what other sort of replacement parts suitably bring our cars up to more modern standard beside the bulbs and wipers? I would like to know so that I may search now and have spare parts ready when needed. My car doesn't have turn signals and from what I can tell it wasn't even an option by the sales brochures that I got when I bought the car. I shows the radio, heater, locking gas cap, seat covers ect,all of which I have except seat covers but not turn signals, .so I guess it wasn't an option in 39.0
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$900.00---Wow, that is high!!!! I did one here in Utah a few years back and I think it was $125.00.
Anyway, I have been both ways. On my 52 "Salt Flats Racer" I did the conversion. Went all the way, and what a pain it was. Did not notice much difference, so I would not do it again. My 54 is all stock.... But, like what was said above, you will find people on both sides of this question. You simply have to make a decision and stay with it. I often get the question: "Why didn't you go 12 V. I always say, six is all they needed, and it works for me...0 -
Val:
1). I'm not sure how to find a 12-volt generator that will fit your car, unless you visit your nearest antique car show, take a tape measure, and ask everyone with a 1957- Maybe someone here can suggest an interchange to your '39.
2). The 6-volt quartz halogen bulbs with the American Pre-Focus base (three holes around a flange), in two wattages, are made in Australia by Classic & Vintage bulbs. http://www.classicandvintagebulbs.com/ He sells direct at Hershey each year, or order through Little British Car Co. in Michigan (you can google them). Of course you'll want to get your reflectors resilvered, install a relay, and maybe even do a ground wire to the sockets, to insure maximum brightness.
3). Inconveniences? Slower speeds, difficulty in finding parts, no air bags....things like that.
4). There was no factory built-in turnsignal for '39. You can use a StepDown signal switch and it should clamp around your steering column perfectly. Looks like it was made for the car and you can even make it self-canceling if you don't mind cutting a notch in the steering column. There was a metal raceway to take the wires down the outside of the column, and a cast metal chromed piece at the bottom, to conduct the wires up under the dash. Get the 6-wire version of the switch if you want to use your brakelights as rear signals (instead of mounting separate red lights). If you have fender lights at front you can use them for the front lights; if not, buy a pair of vintage-looking accessory lights (like chrome backup lights) and mount them on the bumper brackets.
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I did the conversion to 6V bulbs like new cars use and worked with Daniel Stern. I will post the results later.0
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Dan, very interesting, looking forward to seeing the results.
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If you scroll down on this post you can find my pictures of the halogen bulb results. These are not sealed beam replacements but reflectors with replaceable bulbs.0
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I run 100W Halogen's with H&L relays and + directly from battery. Control current from dimmer. Another positive for 12V.
Relays shown: click below.
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Val, given your wanting to keep it looking original, you could consider installing a '56 Hudson generator. 12v Neg. ground. It doesn't give you the low rpm output of an alternator, but has adequate output and looks much like the original '39.
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Park WI am most likely gonna stay with my 6V system but if I do go 12V will the 56 fit and work with my 39?0
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It will if you use a mounting bracket that it'll fasten to. Try to get the matching bracket, then do any slight mod's needed to position the generator correctly (fore & aft). And be sure to get the regulator that matches up with that generator.0
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Contrary to popular opinion, charging with an alternator is also virtually nil at idle.0
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FYI
Go with 12volt System like Doug recommends either with an Alternator or 12V Generator.
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Val,Geoff's suggestions for staying with 6 volts are important. If you don't have the original (very thick) cables to connect the battery to the solenoid, and to ground, make sure that Doug supplies you with wires of the proper thickness.As Jon B said, if your car doesn't already have headlight relays, you could consider putting them in. 6 volt relays are available. This routes the heavy current for the headlights straight from the battery to the headlights, instead of having to go through the light switch, and the floor switch. I did this on my 1935 Hudson many years ago.The main inconvenience I had when running cars with generators in local driving during the winter for everyday use was keeping the battery charged. (I did not have a battery charger.) Since typical antique driving does not include this situation, I don't see why getting an alternator would be of much benefit.The other inconvenience that I can remember with cars at that time, whether 6 volt or 12 volt, was having to add a quart of oil quite often!If you can obtain a Hudson overdrive transmission for your car, it would give you a higher advisable cruising speed for your car. A Hudson overdrive transmission from a 1940 would be the nicest bolt-in fit, but the 1941 to 1951 Hudson overdrive transmissions can work without too much trouble, I believe.Ken U-Tx and ken 1962,When I turn on a room air conditioner, my 1910 voltage knob and tube wiring gently heats the basement ...Per0
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Ken U-Tx I would have Dr Doug and the gang do it if I am to go that route. But leaning more toward staying with my 6 volt system. The main reasons folks have said the 12V system is better is faster starting, running accessory's and brighter head lights. While a faster start is nice mine isn't that slow to begin with. I don't have any accessory's except the radio and clock, and as for brighter lights well it got dark in 1939 too, and I have the city lights today and don't drive the car at night much anyway. And my 6v Gen doesn't charge much at idle either.Ol racer- maybe but as stated I am leaning toward staying with my 6V. Although as I think the ease of going to an auto parts store or local sears and buying a battery and bulbs for the 12V is nice.Per- I do have the thick cable from battery to starter solenoid but will ask that Doug check for correct part number and size. I have headlight relays and I have a battery charger/tender for 6v and 12v. The over drive trans I did not know about. Will talk with the gang about that too.0
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Val, there's a 6v halogen headlight system out there that works fantastic. Includes the reflectors and gives you the sharp cut-off beams like the new cars do. I'm pretty sure it will go right in your '39. I had them in my '47. The bad news is I've no longer got the source info, but someone here on the Forum probably does.0
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Know nothing about these, but at $22.00 for both 6 Volt Halogen sealed beam headlights, someone perhaps should try and post results. Certainly cheap enough~~~
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Halogen-Sealed-Beam-Glass-Headlight-Head-Light-Headlamp-Bulbs-Pair-6V-6-Volt-/370542819946Bet they don't have the cut-off like my 100 w Cibe Halogens I once had tho; almost made you dizzy at night.
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I am running these bulbs in my 54 CS and they are super! Using dual head light relay to provide power to them.0
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Although I recently sold my 1954 Hornet, I wanted to chime in about 6 volt, as I kept that car original.
I was always having problems with a wet cell battery, and the generator. Remember you have to be 30MPH for the generator to charge the battery. I told myself there has to be a better way to get this car more reliable.And I was 6volt negative. Two things I did to alleviate the starting problem. 1st was get out of points and go to Electronic Ignition. Pertronix. Never had a problem. Next was to purchase a 6 volt negative alternator. They even furnished me with the bolt on setup. Next was to get out of a wet cell battery and go to Optima. More cranking power. I also had my starter motor overhauled and juiced up. Starting was never a problem from then on, except after about 5-6 days the gas would drain out or dissolve out of the carb. Yes I would have to pump. I could have solved that by an electric fuel pump. But after she started and ran and I got to drive it, I forgot about the electric fuel pump. The only thing that did not work on the car was the 6 volt radio. And I wasn't about to spend $400.00 to listen anything on the radio these days. Besides I was more interested in listening for the engine and any new sounds that may appear. I bought that car from Bill Albright, but it took me 9 yrs to get it where I wanted it and was a happy camper. I miss it at times,, but it went to a nice guy that appreciated what I had done to it. I tried Halogen bulbs for the taillights, but wasn't that happy with them so went back to originals. Headlights much different. Yes use a monster cable from battery to starter. Have fun with your Hudson, it's a great car..
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When changing to 12v alternator and Eliminating the old regulator, where are the overdrive wires now connected?
Update-
Found the proper schematic on Ken Cates website.
http://www.hudsonrestoration1948-54.com/Transmission.htm
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Park W, RichardD, I do have a pair of 6V sealed beams in the spare it. They were on the car when I bought it. I took them off to go back to the original set up, ParkW that woud be great though as it sounds as though I wouldn't have to change my original trim and glass.Hudson Grandpa I have 6V POS Ground system. I do have the electronic ignition from pertronix. However Dr Doug suggest I go back to points. So yet to be seen but probably stay with electronic. Like the look of my generator. Alternator just looks funny on the car to me. As for the radio I would like to have it working again. AS well as play my IPOD so that I may play period music in the car at times.I have wet cell battery as I have been told by some do not waste my money on Optima. I was considering Optima. I would be willing to try halogen bulbs if the fit into the original set up but please tell me more about the optima battery. Thanks you I will enjoy her when the good doctor gets her done.Kdancy - thanks, Ill keep this and if I ever go 12V I can use it.0
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