Picture of Wasp steering gear

Comments

  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Corrected the photo link!
  • Lee ODell
    Lee ODell Senior Contributor
    Possible gear box leak. Low gear oil level?
    Lee O'Dell
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    edited August 2014
    Oil level was full and smelled like it was 60 years old! It doesn't look like a wear issue to me as much as a casting flaw the way it is cratered.
  • parkerm
    parkerm Expert Adviser
    So what do you do with that? Replace it, or weld it and then machine it back down to it's original size?
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Lares corp told me it wasn't repairable. They found a new gear for 350.00.
    I have a good used one coming. In the mean time I'm checking with a gear company that
    I have done business with before (made me new Studebaker V8 timing gears) to see how much cost would be to reproduce these. I was told that only about 1 in 5 SWB steering gears were good. Probably most being driven have defective gears.
    The gear looks to be pressed on a keyed shaft (steering shaft). I think welding up the gear and cutting back down would be a process in itself because of the shape and angle of the "screw". And I would guess it would need to be hardened.
  • lostmind
    lostmind Expert Adviser

    Just curious , but I seem to remember guys putting long wheelbase steering boxes in the swb cars.

    Any one done this?

  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    edited August 2014
    There was an old post on the classiccar site talking about the swap. I tried then to get that info and never could. I can't pull that discussion up now.
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor

    I disassembled a LWB steering sector and found that the gear is pressed on and not intended to be removed, I suppose it could be welded. I sawed the gear off and put a Ujoint in place of the worm. Cut a large portion off the casting so I could connect it to a rack and pinion. I'll bet the SWB version is the same.

    There has to be a good used one out there somewhere.

  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Dave, this one is "keyed" to the shaft. Were the lwb ones installed the same?
  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor
    Sure looks the same to me.
  • lostmind
    lostmind Expert Adviser

    Seems to be a quality control problem. I'm pretty sure the LWB gear box will go in , just don't remember the

    modifications needed. All the guys I know that did it have passed on to Hudson Heaven.

  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Mel's second one he sent to me -- Also bad. That makes 5 I have looked at that are all defective.

  • SuperDave
    SuperDave Senior Contributor

    Kerry,

    I have a long wheel base  column and gear I took out of my 49 project when I switched to HydraMatic. I put a 51 Hornet column and sector in.  It's your if you want to experiment. I am going to Claremont for the OBC get together. I'll bring it along if you want to meet up with us. We will be staying in the Winter Garden RV Resort. Friday night through Sunday.

  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    edited September 2014

    Another update on the SWB gear issue.

    I obtained one from Mel Faulk that only had a small 1/2 section that had
    started "peeling". I cleaned it and one of the really bad ones up
    very good with degreaser and carb cleaner then took them to a welding shop to
    see if the bad area could be tig welded then ground for repair, first using the
    really bad one to set the machine up.

     In a nutshell, they couldn't get a good weld with anything but stick
    weld. The underneath surface kept bubbling up like there were air pockets in
    the gear core.  I still suspect most of
    these were a manufacturing issue.

    The stick weld held but I don't see a good way to grind it for proper fit then
    you would need to harden it but that could be done.

     So, now I'm looking for a good one that doesn't have any issues.

  • 48Sed
    48Sed Senior Contributor
    I have taken apart 5 boxes in the last couple of weeks from 1946-47 and found the same troubles in all of them. The boxes were full of oil by the way and no rust issues. 
    It looks like this trouble was happening way before the Wasp.
    Check out where the lower bearing rides,what a rough surface.

  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    yes, that galling looks the same. wonder how the LWB stepdowns look now?
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    edited September 2014
    Here is my conversation with Lares about this issue ---

    Good Morning,

    Recently you rebuilt a 1952 Hudson Wasp Steering box for me.

    In my research of these boxes it seems that Hudson had a quality control issue

    with the 50-54 short wheelbase cars as owners of the long wheel base cars
    (48-54 stepdowns) don’t

    seem to have the steering gear issues that the others have.

    Here is my photobucket album pictures of the SWB gears I have looked at.

    http://s294.photobucket.com/user/studebaker2/library/53%20Hudson%20Wasp%20Steering%20box%20-%20Gears?sort=3&page=1

    In total, I have looked at 7 different steering boxes built from 1950-53, all with
    the same issue, galling and cratering of the steering shaft worm gear.

    I’m concerned about even using an NOS gear as it will probably do the same if
    driven enough.

    Do you think a re-manufactor of these gears would cure the issue with better
    quality metal?

    If so, do you have an idea who might be able to make them?

    Kerry

    Paul Lares

    Kerry,

    I understand your concern. That style steering gear was
    used by many different applications. It isn't that there is a quality control issue
    it is that the old seals do not hold the original oil in the gear and over time
    the oil leaks out causing the worm and sector shaft and/or roller to run dry on
    each other. We used newer style seals and hard pack grease. The newer seals
    prevent any seepage and the grease we use has polymers to prevent separation
    that would allow any oil to leak out. So this really isn't an issue anymore.

    Running the steering gear dry will cause the galling. The
    cratering or pitting is caused from moisture getting into the steering gear.
    The newer seals we use prevents that from happening.

    Kerry

    --It is strange that out of 7 I looked at all had the
    same issue and all were full of oil-grease. I can understand the moisture
    problem, but the cratering seems to be metal quality and not the typical
    pitting from moisture.

    I might add that I didn't see any water or moisture in
    any of those boxes.

    Paul Lares

    The original oils were nothing compared to the oils and
    greases used today. They provided lubrication but didn't necessarily prevent
    moisture from eroding the metals. One thing to remember about the moving part
    in the steering gear is that they are all case hardened. Typically the worm and
    roller style are carburized. Now I'm not saying that originally they weren't carburized
    but if you are looking for a newer replacement worm they will be extremely hard
    to find if they are even available.

    Kerry

    Ok, that makes sense to me, I was wondering about the
    original oil-grease quality.

    The one you re-built for me had a good gear. The only one
    Ive seen.

    Next question, does the steering shaft gear and the
    pinion gear need to be a matched set? much like a ring and pinion?

    Paul Lares

    I was just looking at your pictures and I see the wear
    that you are talking about. I can tell you that I have seem wear like this in
    several steering gears not just Hudson's. Especially if they are more than 50
    years old. We need to remember that 90% of a steering gears life is rocking
    back and forth on the center position. After 60 years that much wear could be
    expected.

    Yes the worm and sector shaft roller must match. If they
    do not match the gear will not adjust properly and may have play or binding
    issues.

    Kerry

    So, getting one without the other won't last?

    You had a new steering shaft gear, but we would need to
    come up with an nos pinion gear to match?

    Paul Lares

    Depends on the condition of the other part. They don't
    always have to replaced in pairs. If the roller is in great shape but the worm
    in chewed up then you wouldn't necessarily have to replace the roller and vice
    versa.

    Kerry

    ok, I haven't seen a roller in bad condition, only the
    worm.

    Paul Lares

    Be aware that the wear points on the roller are not only
    limited to the teeth that ride on the worm gear.

    Kerry

    Ok, thanks for your info, I'll be sending another box soon.

     

     

  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Ken, I just called and talked with Tim at Midwest Re-manufacturing LLC.
    That is the same gear. He is going to pull up the numbers on the Hudson steering box and call me
    back tomorrow morning with the info.
    Thanks,

  • J Spencer
    J Spencer Expert Adviser
    edited September 2014

    Seems to be a quality control problem. I'm pretty sure the LWB gear box will go in , just don't remember the

    modifications needed. All the guys I know that did it have passed on to Hudson Heaven.

    Years ago I spoke with a member that put a LWB steering gear in a Pacemaker convertable.  He said" If I had known how much work (trouble) it was I would not have done it, but now that it is in I like it" As I recall he said that the shaft is longer and has to be shortened and also mentioned something about the mounting and pitman arm,- but I don't remember what.  That was in 1988 @ the York, Pa Nationals

    I'll bet my 51 Pacemaker has the same problem because on a right turn it 'catches'.  I have a whole gear from a 1954 swb that seem OK on the floor, sounds like I should remove the cover and inspect it before  I put it in.

    Jim Spencer
    Western New York Chapter
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Jim, I bet that is exactly the same problem. You should take the 54 box cover off and check the worm gear in that one before using.
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    Picture of gear split in half.
  • 48Sed
    48Sed Senior Contributor
    Can you post a picture of the shaft showing the worm gear end?
    Thanks
  • Kdancy
    Kdancy Senior Contributor
    edited September 2014
    It was tried with stick, mig and tig by a certified welder that I've had weld some pretty tricky stuff over the years. Each time air pocket or bubbles, just like before welding, worked up into the weld. I took a grinder and ground down to see what I could find under the weld before cutting it in half.
    I talked to several companies that make gears and none could reproduce that worm gear because of the shape of the gear splines or ridges. The same for trying to machine the welds back to proper surface for matching the roller gear.
    The one reproduction Chrysler gear is actually made in India.
  • J Spencer
    J Spencer Expert Adviser
    Jim, I bet that is exactly the same problem. You should take the 54 box cover off and check the worm gear in that one before using.
    Kdancy, I took the cover off the 54 box and sure enough it has a pit in it, not as bad as some, but still.?/ I also posted in another post the interchange of the steering columm with my 51.Seems logical by changing the tube/shifter out but Hollender interchange list 50-53 OK 54 by itself, also Lares shows same. Maybe difference in ratios?? Any one done it knows.  Photo of the 54 box enclosed  
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